Simple trigger for $ or Complex (TTL) trigger for $$

Initial requirements discussion

Moderator: seaton

Simple trigger for $ or Complex (TTL) trigger for $$

Postby brittonphotography » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:33 pm

Post your thoughts:
I am guessing
$35 completed assembly for one transceiver for simple fast triggering and long range.

$60 completed assembly for one transceiver with TTL and manual modes.


Would you pay more for more? or stick with simple for less?
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Not about the money

Postby anton.tagunov » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:48 pm

For me it's not about the money. I'd buy either. But if I choose to participate in the project and build the remote myself I need it to be as simple and robust as possible.
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Simple or complex

Postby Thonord » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:07 pm

The stability of the product will depend more upon the robustness of the wireless link than anything else.

I think our requirement for a v1 we should include a quality RF link. Even if we only transmitt one data bit. i.e. a trigger signal.

I don't think the question is: Are we able to design and build a RF trigger?

I think the stability of v1 will determine the future of the product and a v2.

Tom
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Postby brittonphotography » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:18 pm

Tom,

I see this group having no problem building a complex trigger.
So a simple trigger is easy.

I think the limiting factor is the demand for the product and if people will indeed pay more for the complex trigger then we should just build that.
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Hear hear

Postby Thonord » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:23 pm

Very happy to second that notion.

I was being overly cautious.

Tom
Ppl who agree need normally not reply, those who disagree or have questions do.
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Postby brittonphotography » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:29 pm

still need more info on price people would pay for complex functions.
or if they would prefer cheaper with just flash trigger.

looks to me like complex functionality capability wins though.
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Postby Elv000 » Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:07 am

It needs to be built on a platform that will allow for more complex functions later. This is open source the whole idea is so that poeple can run wild with it later.

Get the basic triggering down pat but make sure theres room for lots of flexibility.... surely thats whats going to keep people excited about the geeky possibilities :D It would be sad to get it all sorted as a basic trigger and then constantly hear - I'd like to do this and that but the existing platform won't support it!

If that cost a few more dollars it be well worth it !!
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Postby seaton » Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:53 am

A "hackable" trigger that is open in terms of hardware / software and protocols, that you can implement whatever functions you like. In one of the earlier threads. I feel that whatever we decide on as far as initial hardware specs will become the reference design, but not the only one. people with experience with other hardware will more than likely add there own.

I see that we will be able to create custom "personalities" that users can download to the triggers, e.g. you only want something simple i.e. fully manual remote trigger then download the basic personality to all units, you have a canon camera, you use the canon personality for the camera module, yet you may have a mixture of canon, nikon or manual strobes, so to fully take advantage of the strobe functionality then a personality suiting the strobe can be uploaded to the slave trigger, and it could be done centrally as they are all connected digitally via wireless, so in effect a network of strobes.

People are also talking about controlling the strobes power via the triggers, well we could have a personality to do just that if we allow for some external I/O in our initial design its just up to the end user how they want to implement it etc.

so really anything and everything may be possible, depends on the user and what they want out of it.

I think our initial role is to come up with the reference design. And the first personality will probably be very basic i.e. reliably trigger a number of remote units at a given distance, just like the ebay triggers.


Stephen....
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Postby strogg » Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:13 am

seaton wrote:A "hackable" trigger that is open in terms of hardware / software and protocols, that you can implement whatever functions you like. In one of the earlier threads. I feel that whatever we decide on as far as initial hardware specs will become the reference design, but not the only one. people with experience with other hardware will more than likely add there own.


I'm totally with seaton here. It might help to think of it in terms of building a platform. My dream trigger is one that lets me change all the flash settings from the transmitter. Someone else's dream trigger is one that can control 16 different flashes. Someone else may only want TTL support. If you build a base platform that's open and can be changed easily, then people can create different flavours that they want.

And chances are, with so many of us with so many styles, someone will build the trigger that you want.
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Postby ben-s » Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:14 pm

seaton wrote:I see that we will be able to create custom "personalities" that users can download to the triggers, e.g. you only want something simple i.e. fully manual remote trigger then download the basic personality to all units, you have a canon camera, you use the canon personality for the camera module, yet you may have a mixture of canon, nikon or manual strobes, so to fully take advantage of the strobe functionality then a personality suiting the strobe can be uploaded to the slave trigger, and it could be done centrally as they are all connected digitally via wireless, so in effect a network of strobes.


I don't want to seem a wet blanket, but what happens when you program your Rx with the wrong personality? You would need to have a seperate Rx dedicated to each flash if, like most of us, you have several different types of flash.
This would cause untold problems for anyone who (like me) just slings any random pair of flashes and Rx's in the bag.

Maybe you could have multiple personalities embedded into the Rx? although you then need a screen on the Rx to set them up, and that = $/£/€/etc
Lens caps and cable releases can become invisible at will :D
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Postby JonSenior » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:07 am

Maybe you could have multiple personalities embedded into the Rx? although you then need a screen on the Rx to set them up, and that = $/£/€/etc


I disagree. Given that the physical interface for the various forms of TTL is different, choosing the right personality could be simply a case of selecting which connector to use.

A real world example: A usb keyboard that comes with a PS/2 adapter[1]. The protocol is completely different so obviously the adapter cannot be simply mechanical. The solution? The adaptor shorts a connection which inside the keyboard selects which interface chip to use. This can be a simple as wire direct to chip select on both devices with a not gate on one.

Suggested model. Have a port dedicated to TTL control. This gives us (probably) 8 pins to play with. I've not seen a TTL system with more than 5 which would leave 3 for a BCD switching mechanism. This allows for 8 different TTL protocols to be supported by one device simultaneously.

Canon / Nikon / Minolta (Sony) / Sigma (Do they have their own one?)

It's just a case then of offering different connections from the device. These could be nicely made by using the existing TTL extensions systems from the manufacturers in question... for those that want them.
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Flash Trigger yes - Add Shutter Remote. . .

Postby gsansoucie » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:57 am

If only to complicate things, I'd like to add a shutter trigger to the list here.

I'd prefer to have a single wireless system that does everything for me.

And, if I am carrying something to trigger my shutter, might as well allow it to test all/individual flashes too. . .

(Hey, wants can be scoped out. . .)

-=Glen=-
-=Glen=-

n1xf
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Re: Flash Trigger yes - Add Shutter Remote. . .

Postby seaton » Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:53 am

gsansoucie wrote:If only to complicate things, I'd like to add a shutter trigger to the list here.

I'd prefer to have a single wireless system that does everything for me.

And, if I am carrying something to trigger my shutter, might as well allow it to test all/individual flashes too. . .

(Hey, wants can be scoped out. . .)

-=Glen=-


On the wiki I've started a list of I/O requirements and I've allowed for a single auxiliary digital input and digital output, as well as a couple more.

Also alowed for an analogue output so if anyone wants to mod their non ttl strobes for external power control then we can eventually use it.

Stephen...
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Postby seaton » Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:05 am

ben-s wrote:
seaton wrote:I see that we will be able to create custom "personalities" that users can download to the triggers, e.g. you only want something simple i.e. fully manual remote trigger then download the basic personality to all units, you have a canon camera, you use the canon personality for the camera module, yet you may have a mixture of canon, nikon or manual strobes, so to fully take advantage of the strobe functionality then a personality suiting the strobe can be uploaded to the slave trigger, and it could be done centrally as they are all connected digitally via wireless, so in effect a network of strobes.


I don't want to seem a wet blanket, but what happens when you program your Rx with the wrong personality? You would need to have a seperate Rx dedicated to each flash if, like most of us, you have several different types of flash.
This would cause untold problems for anyone who (like me) just slings any random pair of flashes and Rx's in the bag.

Maybe you could have multiple personalities embedded into the Rx? although you then need a screen on the Rx to set them up, and that = $/£/€/etc


While we do need to keep the costs down, remember that prototyping costs will be more expensive that the final product as we won't be getting bulk deals to start with, but once we get the design nailed then we start to look at manufacturing costs.

As far as Rx Personalities, from what I can gather the canon and Nikon protocols detect if their respective flashes are present, so if you inadvertantly put the wrong one on (i.e. does not detect the correct stobe) then it falls back to basic stobe mode, the centre pin always does the same thing and that is fire the strobe.
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